Podcasting has soared in popularity over the past decade, in large part due to how easy they are to create and to enjoy. Podcasts provide many of the benefits of traditional media to showcase a speaker’s personality and insight, while being accessible to anyone with a microphone — a game changer for anyone building a brand and trying to find an audience. Having polished content that lives online and can be shared and discovered anytime is an excellent way to legitimize your work. In today’s episode, Doug will draw upon his experience building podcasts for authors and as a podcaster himself, to share how to get started from the idea phase all the way to gaining listeners and monetizing your show. Doug, welcome to Published.
Doug: Thanks, Tanya! Happy to be here. I’ve been listening to some episodes of your show and I’m excited to dig into the content.
Tanya: Awesome. Well, let’s do it. Why don’t we start by having you introduce yourself and tell us what you do?
Doug: You mean, aside from the cat dad to five rescue cats? Is that actually not my career?
Tanya: Well, the last time I spoke with you, there was a really cute tuxedo in the background. I don’t see that one today. But sure.
Doug: She’s out and about. So my name is Doug Sandler. I am a Podcast Producer and strategist. So we help people launch, grow and build their podcasts. A lot of people don’t know how to actually start a podcast. But beyond the start, it’s actually “what do I do now that I have this thing going?” So we have a full book of clients that are all in the business space that are looking to grow their community, build their influence, and make money podcasting. And that’s exactly what we help them do in addition to the production side of things as well.
Tanya: Awesome. Well, I know a lot of authors who are curious about podcasts, know that it’s another potential way to meet an audience. And as I like to say, put their content into just a different package, just like ketchup coming out of a bottle or squeeze pack or whatever. You just have to meet the audience where they are in many cases, and increasingly that is in the podcast universe. So can you maybe talk about some of the reasons why podcasts are such a good option for authors looking to reach an audience.
Doug: I can really share this from my perspective, because I was an author that was trying to find a promotional way to put my book out there into the world. And I didn’t have the deep pockets that a publicist or a PR agent was going to charge me. It was some ridiculous number for me at the time, it was thousands of dollars every month. So I thought, well, maybe I can figure out some of the things that I can do myself. So I can start my own social media channel, and I can start my own, you know, promotional tool. And then I struck upon podcasting as a way to actually use to promote my book.
So I started this show called The Nice Guys on Business on the tail end of publishing my book called Nice Guys Finish First. And that was nine years ago now. So 1400 and some odd episodes, 5 million downloads later, you know, hundreds or thousands, actually, of books sold. And the book was just kind of like the lead into podcasting.
So as a promotional tool, podcasting was a great way to not only meet potential people that could bring me in to speak to their organizations, but people that might be interested in buying bulk amounts of my book, building relationships with people that I never would have had an opportunity to meet. If I just picked up the phone and call and said, “Hey, would you be open to buying 100 of my books, for your organization?” It’s so much easier to have them sit in the guest’s seat and share a story or two and their message with my audience. So it’s a win for them as the company, and a win for me, because now I’ve met this person that I never would have actually had an opportunity to meet before. In addition to that, the community out there that’s listening to the show — they’re also interested in the content and the book as well. So it was a great starting point for me to really start the promotion of my book.
Tanya: Yeah, that’s a good point, that it kind of opens up this dialog and helps you create a relationship that’s absent many times when you are trying to get those big bulk sales, which every author’s always chasing. And they come to us and say, “Hey, how do I secure bulk sales?” And we hate to break their hearts, but we always turn it around and say… it’s really about your relationships. You can’t just knock on someone’s door and say, how about 500 books?
Doug: Well, right and you know, if you think about it, your audience will be interested in the onesie-twosies, so you’ll be able to sell a book or two to them as you are bringing your content. The guests sitting in the guest’s seat or the person that’s listening. It’s running an organization, they’re the perfect opportunity for you to put your book into the dozens or hundreds and sometimes thousands of books to a single organization that might really relate to your message, and you have an opportunity to build a relationship with that audience member that’s coming back week in and week out to listen to your content. They fall in love with you as the host, and it’s a natural moving point to the next thing is, Okay, well, how can I get closer to this guy that’s hosting this show? And the easiest way to do that is just to connect with the host, find out how the relationship can get better, or what more can I do for engagement with that audience member, and put books in their hands, which really was the main purpose of the podcast.
All of the other stuff that came with it, which was consulting and speaking opportunities, and all of those other things, they fell into place, too. So it did start from maybe a smaller sale, a lead and sale, a book sale, but it did evolve into a much greater journey and a greater opportunity for me in consulting and speaking with those organizations.
Tanya: Yeah, congrats. That’s awesome. Well, our listeners are certainly spanning many genres when we think about the types of work that they either are working on now or planning to publish or have published, and they have different goals too in terms of reaching an audience. So in your experience, now you have tons of these podcasts under your belt, is there a certain type of content that works best in a podcast format?
Doug: Well, I find if the person that is writing the book has a business connected to the subject matter of the book that they are writing about, it makes it a really easy handshake for starting a podcast. People get into podcasting for really one of three reasons: They’re either interested in growing their community, or building influence by being the go to person in their field, or they want to make money. There’s nothing wrong with any of those three, and there’s no right one over wrong, there’s just a strategy that’s attached to all three of those.
So I look at it and think, hey, what industry would work well? If you have an industry that’s connected to the subject matter of your book, that would be the first thing that I would say. The industries that I have found do really well: speaking industry, coaching and consulting works really well, entrepreneurship, anything in the business industry at all, finance works really well, the legal community, medical works really well.
If you have a high end ticket item, something you’re selling, in addition to your book, that also makes for a great podcast message too. Because, again, you’re building a relationship, people won’t buy a $10 or a $20, or a $50,000 service from somebody on one call. But if they have an opportunity, as they’re listening, to build that relationship over, you know, 2, 3, 4 months of listening to your show. I’ve had clients that have come from my show that have been listening to the show for six, seven years that I never even knew were in my audience. So I’ve nurtured that relationship, kind of like an email drip campaign, but using audio instead of the written word to build that relationship. So there’s not one specific industry that would work better than another. But those are the ones that I have found have worked very well on my client list.
Tanya: Yeah, that makes sense. And you mentioned earlier that you initially began this podcast journey, because the cost of a PR traditional publicist campaign would be prohibitive at the time. So I know, I talked to a lot of authors about podcasts, and they kind of cringe and think that it’s going to be expensive and/or sort of beyond their capabilities to set that up on their own. Can you talk a little bit about the nuts and bolts of costs and what they can expect to look at, in terms of getting started if they went this route?
Doug: Yeah, there’s a couple of really easy methods to get started podcasting. One is you go to Google, and you just type in to start a podcast. And it gives you probably a thousand or a hundred thousand different opportunities for you to start a podcast and instructions, and you know, YouTube videos and all of that, that’s for those that want to be really hands on with their application and getting a podcast started. Because there’s really two phases of podcasting. The first phase is the launch phase, where you’re building all of the elements to your show things like your cover art, and your show description, and you’re open and closed, the voiceover, the royalty free music, you’re establishing a relationship with Apple podcasts and Spotify and all the different platforms that are out there.
And some people really love the idea of jumping in and doing that themselves. There are others that don’t want to do that at all. They want a concierge service, a white glove treatment in putting this together, and those tend to be the more expensive services that are out there. So you can go from free with an organization like Google just typing it out. You can do a DIY type of course, where you take somebody like me that has created a course for it, and spend probably a thousand bucks putting the course together, but you’re still doing all the work yourself. And then on the high end you have, again, an organization like mine that can do full service, and you’ll probably be in the $5,000 to $10,000 range to put something like that together too. We’re not embarrassed by our pricing, we don’t feel like we overcharge. We feel like we really deliver a high quality service for what we do. And we know we have a formula that we’ve launched 350+ shows to produce 10,000+ client episodes. We’re never concerned that, you know, are we overcharging? Are we undercharging? I think we’re just right in the industry. You could probably produce an NPR-style show and spend $100,000 on getting the production together, but we wanted to bring it to a level where it made sense for people that are publishing books, professional speakers. We didn’t want to be available to everyone, so that’s why our prices are where they’re at.
Tanya: And just in case you’ve just caught someone’s interest there, would you like to give them the URL that they could go to, to learn more about what you just described?
Doug: Sure. I mean, if they want to go to TurnkeyPodcast.com, that would be a great starting point. It really would be probably even better to go to the contact me page on the Turnkey site — Probably best just to have a preliminary conversation with me or somebody on the team to see if podcasting is even a good opportunity for them. And, there’s no pitch in that call, it really is just an information fact finding session. We love to find out, you know, what are your goals for launching a podcast, and we’re happy to share with that person, whoever is going to contact us, how to do it if they choose to, and the different opportunities that they have. And there’s no pressure to sign up now, or you know, “we have a 24 hour sale going on,” none of that. It’s where we’re tried and true in this business. We want to only work with the people that really want to take care of this and get it done.
Tanya: Let’s go back to content. So some folks may, let’s say, have a business book — I know you also have a business book — and may be struggling to think about, how do I get enough content to support an entire podcast out of this book, even though it is my life’s work? A lot of it doesn’t seem to translate into that format. So how can somebody with a nonfiction book go about thinking about their content, in terms of translating it into a podcast?
Doug: Well, let’s take a typical book that might be between 10 and 15 chapters. Well, we know we have at least 10 to 15 episodes right in those chapters, because we can dissect each one of those chapters and create an episode.
Once you do that, and are comfortable, and that’s enough content for you to start to feel comfortable in the podcasting space, we start to work on this strategy. Does it make sense to have interviews or possibly panel conversations? Or do we want to do solo casts? We want your audience to know enough about you to want to take the step out of anonymity and get to know who you are by letting you know, through a lead magnet or opt in page, a little bit more about you. But we don’t want to provide all of the information, so they never want to call you. So the nice part about it is there’s a balancing act, and that’s all in the strategy. So the starting point is to dissect the book.
Second phase is maybe we talk panel conversations or solo casts or interviews, and then we can figure out what is a good way to build a content calendar. That’s the other thing that’s nice about working with a full service organization like ours, or any others that are out there, for that matter, is that you want to work with someone that can help you create that content calendar. So you’re not feeling like, Oh, my God, I have this blank canvas. And I don’t know where to go with it. So we really do help fine tune the content calendar with you as well.
Tanya: Yeah, that’s super important. Something I’ve learned, we only do one a month here at Published, but something I’ve learned is that you get to a point where you’re just really racking your brain to come up with something new. So having a partner like that can be invaluable on that front.
Doug: Can I add something to that? Because I think that it’s essential to understand that in the beginning, that is everyone’s worry: I’m going to run out of content. Nine years into this, I will tell you, and 1450 episodes later, we have probably about a year’s worth of future content that we already have built into our arsenal, into our recording bank. It’s not a relevant thing down the road. In the beginning it is, and it’s one of those times where it’s like — it’s the same thing with technology. Oh, I never, I don’t know technology, I’m not sure how I’m ever gonna figure it out, the microphone and all that. Once you get on in and start working that flywheel, it’s slow at the beginning, but then it really becomes very easy.
Right now, because we have an interview-based show, I probably have 75 to 100 people every week applied to be on my show, I will never run out of content, I promise you I will never run out of content. And for those that listen to our process in our strategy and are engaged in our systems, they’ll never run out of content either. So it is a question that is brought up all the time by our newer clients. But it is one that, once they’re a handful of months into it, they’re like, I can’t believe I was worried about that.
Tanya: Awesome. Well, for the folks who haven’t yet achieved the notoriety that you’ve achieved that brings all these interviewees to you, how would they go about finding guests? And on the flip side of that, how would they go about putting themselves out there as a guest to be interviewed?
Doug: Well, you have a great platform for finding guests. So I would go to any publisher that has new authors that are trying to expose their book to the marketplace. That’s a great spot. I’ve even found authors from the book rack at the airport where I know that they’re in an extra promotional spot, because that’s not a free place for them to be hanging their books, so I know they’re really engaged in wanting to promote their book and have some great relationships now with PR agencies, publicists, other publishers that are out there, business consultants that have clients that have content that they want to get out to the world, podcast placement agencies that are out there, the list is endless.
And that doesn’t even start to approach, how about all of those people that are on your personal list, all of your prospects that potentially have a great message to share? What a great way to build a relationship with a prospective client, is to have them sit in your guest’s seat, build a relationship with them, and then share their message with your audience. So there are a number of opportunities. And again, it is early on it’s a concern. A few months in, a handful of months in, it is never a concern. It’s like, Well, I gotta stop the flow a little bit of the guests, because I got to figure out where my content is coming from.
Tanya: Yeah. And once you get to that coveted point, how do you go about growing your listenership? That’s a part of this that we haven’t talked about yet.
Doug: Yeah, well, the biggest area that you’re going to actually grow your listenership is going to be if you do have an interview-based show, is going to be from the person that’s sitting in your guest’s seat. So that guest that’s coming on your show, they have a community, just like you have a community and who wants to hear more about that guest? Well, their community wants to hear a little bit of a slightly different angle. So if you establish, let’s call them rules, before that, that schedule link is given to that guest, and the rules are things like, Hey, we’re going to promote this, how are you going to promote this as well? You start to build your community on the shoulders of people that have built big communities.
In addition to your guests that sitting in the guest’s seat that is applying to be on your show, you can actually go after guests that have large communities with the hope that if I put this person in the guest seat, and one of the rules I share with them is you’re going to have to share this with your community, they love it too, because they have big communities that they want to share it with. In the beginning, you may say I want to grow my community quickly. Well, a great way to do that is look at Instagram, and look at all of the people that are in your industry or on LinkedIn, people that are in your industry that have 20,000, 40,000, 100,000 followers or connections. It’s a great way to grow your community. And as long as you’ve established some rules and some fair play — When somebody comes to a publisher, and they say I want to publish a book, sometimes the publisher says, Great, we’ll think about publishing your book, how big is your community? I’m really curious. It is no different in the podcasting space as well with your guests. We want guests that have large communities, because that’s where a lot of promotion comes from.
Tanya: That’s great advice, for sure. And I think another important point to emphasize and one that won’t be unfamiliar to the folks listening is you have to be willing to make the ask right, just the same way that if your book is out there in the world, and someone says I really liked your book, you have to train yourself to respond with that’s awesome. Would you please leave me a review? Oh, yeah. And if someone says I love your podcasts, or they were a guest on your podcast, it’s not unfair for you to turn around and say, great, please rate it and leave a review.
Doug: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, when I first published my book, one of the things my objective was, I wanted to get to 100 reviews as quickly as I possibly can. And I know that’s kind of that coveted number, if I can get to 100 reviews, people looking at my book on Amazon, or wherever they’re searching, will start to give me some whether that’s relevant or not, I feel like they’re gonna give me some credibility. Because I have 100 reviews. It’s no different in the podcasting space, if I see someone that has 100 episodes out of their show, but they have two reviews, I’m thinking there’s not a lot of engagement going on with that with that host. But if I see somebody that has 100 episodes and has 200 reviews, now I know that this is a show that has a locked in community.
So as a guest, I always encourage people to look for the shows that have 50 to 100 episodes that are out 50 to 100 reviews, and you probably are in a good spot with someone that has a show that’s connected. And again, that’s where you’re growing your community too. But you’re 100% right, Tanya, you have to approach this strategically. If you go at this and say, I’ll just build it and they will come… It’s just not gonna happen. It doesn’t happen in any environment, especially a crowded environment like the book environment or the podcasting space. But you absolutely can separate yourself from those that are just hobbyists in podcasting, treat it like a business and it will give you business results.
Tanya: Very well said. So let’s get into some jargon. There exists broadcasting and narrowcasting. Can you explain to our audience what those two terms mean? They probably know what broadcasting is generally but narrowcasting, what is that and which one should they be shooting for?
Doug: Yeah, I love that you asked that question. I talked about this with my clients all the time. And I can use an example of a show that I actually host. I have a show called Ford Mustang the Early Years podcast. Now, it only talks about the first generation Mustang because I’m a classic car fan. I have a ’65 Mustang sitting in my garage. The people that love those first gen ’65 to ’67 Mustangs are probably male, probably 50 to 80 years old. I know that market in and out, I don’t want to broadcast to all my classic cars, all classic car people, I only want to talk to the first generation Mustang owners and enthusiasts, so I’ve created a show called Ford Mustang, The Early Years podcast. And that show gets about 1000 to 1500 downloads per episode, which is a fairly decent amount. The industry standard is somewhere between 50 to 100. The good people are getting 200, good podcasters, you’re getting 200 downloads. So for us to get 1000 downloads an episode, we’re actually focused just on the market that I want to talk to the relevance.
The reason why that’s important is because we want to narrowcast. We’re creating a message just speaking to that market. So when I have my general business show The Nice Guys On Business, we get thousands of downloads an episode. It’s great to have thousands of downloads. However, the issue is that whenever we do a call to action on that show, meaning we’re asking our audience to take action on something, we may only get 0.1, 0.2% of our audience may take action. So we may get 20 people that take action on a call to action on the Nice Guys on Business broadcast.
Narrowcast, our Ford Mustang show, if I have a listening audience, let’s say it’s just 1000 listeners on that show, I’ll put out a call to action, we’ll get 20-30%. That means 200 to 300 people will opt into something that we have, whether it’s a bonus, whether it’s a swag bag, it’s a service guide, anything like that. And I love it, because we’ll get people to take action on pretty much anything. So I know that if I asked my audience to do something, if I had a book, First Generation Mustangs, if I created that book, I probably could sell 200 to 300 copies of that book, just by having an episode that I entered as the book to my audience. So it’s a built-in audience that’s ready for taking action. Narrowcasting, the micro niches — the smaller the audience, actually, the better the audience. The more refined your audience, the better. So don’t look for 10,000 people not taking action, I’d rather have 100 people actually taking action. And that’s that narrowcast.
Tanya: You said that so well. And it’s very true on the publishing side as well. Of course, we often have people who come in and submit their book, and there’s a question asking them to describe their audience. And, you know, it always gets a chuckle out of us when it says everybody. No, it’s not everybody. I think it takes some discipline sometimes to try and put a face to your audience, if you have to, you know, come up with a persona and really let that drive strategically, all of your promotion.
Doug: And the nice thing about it is once you have your your podcast up and running, and you’ve been doing it for any length of time at all, and the length of time being probably more greater than 12 months, your audience will tell you what they’re actually looking for, you know, they’ll reach out and they’ll say, I’m looking for this guest I’m looking for this product, I’m looking for this service, can you provide that? Or Can you guide me, and when you get that you’re in a winning position. And I know that doesn’t necessarily relate to writing a book. But if the catalyst to you starting a podcast is a published book, you’ll quickly discover in less than 12 months or so you’ll quickly discover what your audience wants. How great would it be to have your market raise their hand and say, This is what I want to buy from you. Can you create it? And so that is what has led to a robust business for us out of our production business, because our audience actually tells us what they want. And so to our guests.
Tanya: Yeah, I love that. That’s the key to entrepreneurship. Right, having the ear to the ground. You mentioned a couple of interesting benchmarks in response, like a couple questions ago, you were talking about what a good download number would be for an episode. And I think a lot of people probably have questions around that topic, like what does success mean for a podcaster? When are you doing it right? What are some of those key benchmarks that they should be looking for?
Doug: Well, I want to get out of the way of this thing called the ego metrics. Ego metrics are downloads. So when somebody says how many downloads, if somebody is asking someone a question about their podcasts and how many subscribers do you have? Or how many downloads? You get the ego in you wanting to answer a higher number. The higher the number the better, according to ego metrics.
The reality of it is, the number of people that are listening to your show are irrelevant based upon the success of your show. So it’s really important early on to establish some some goals and what are those goals are those goals I want to build my email list to X amount of people I want to I want to get generate X amount of revenue from my podcast directly or indirectly do I want to have a certain amount of listeners that are taking action to something that I you know, when I put out a call to action, so we have to try to figure out early on in the game, even though it can change and evolve but early on in the game, we want to establish what will be success to you. If we are able to accomplish this, you will say I’ve been successful.
The challenge is a lot of people get into podcasting, and they don’t either have a goal, or the goal is more, more as a really crappy goal. You’ll never be happy, if more is your goal. So we want to establish some realistic guidelines for what would be happy, you know what would be successful. But there is no download number that will be success. I mean, unless you’re Joe Rogan, or Tony Robbins, or Tim Ferriss, we are never as normal people going to get millions of downloads for your show, you won’t accomplish that. And you’ll only be looking at disappointment.
Now, that being said, you might get millions of downloads over the course of time, but maybe not. Why don’t we set a goal for a metric that actually means something? And whatever that means something is, is going to be determined by what you’re trying to accomplish with your show. Do you want to book more consulting jobs? Do you want to have more speaking engagements? Do you want to sell more books? How do we know the number of books that we want to sell? So it’s challenging to put a number on those things. But I’m happy to work through those things with someone that is in the early stages of considering starting a podcast because, you know, somebody says to me, I want to sell 10,000 books in 30 days, so that I can be a New York Times bestseller or whatever it takes to become a bestseller. I might tell them, this isn’t the opportunity that they’re looking for, because I can’t help them accomplish that goal.
Tanya: And speaking of podcasts and book sales, so how do you most effectively translate or I guess, convert a listener into a book buyer? And are there other ways to monetize a podcast?
Doug: Oh, my gosh, my girlfriend and I, she’s also a podcast expert, we sat down one day and went through the different ways that we have monetized our podcasts over the last eight or nine years of building our shows, and we came up with 21 ways that you can monetize your podcast. So of course, I’ll share just a few of them with you. You converting your audience into customers or buyers, that is definitely a great way to go. But if you have an online course, if you create a joint venture partnership with somebody in either in your community or in the guest’s seat, if you directly buy or sell products or services with that guest, if you create a referral source. You know, you and I were working together on my show The Nice Guys On Business, and as a result of that, I’ve had a couple of conversations with Greenleaf to talk to them about podcasting as an opportunity for your clients, so I would consider that at some level of joint venture partnership.
You’re also going to have great conversations with people that won’t translate directly into money or referrals or joint venture partners or affiliate relationships, but they’re so good that you know that there is something in there. And I don’t know how to categorize that other than say, I don’t know how we’re going to make anything of this together, but would you be open to having another conversation to figure it out together? As long as you are looking at this with the word “opportunity” in your brain, podcasting is opportunity. You will find the opportunity in podcasting.
So that was just a handful of ways that you can make money podcasting, and I never even mentioned advertising and sponsorship because advertising and sponsorship, while it will make you money, national standards are, you know, $20 to $30 per 1000 listeners to your show. So that means if you have 200 to 500 listeners listening to your show, you may only make $15 to $20 per episode as an industry standard. And I would say gosh, that’s just not enough for me to want a podcast. So let’s go for broke and let’s start doing talking about things like book sales, consulting, speaking gigs, joint venture partnerships, turning guests into clients, audience into clients, online courses, all of that. And we’ve made millions from our show, and it just seems like almost like it’s unfair anymore because it feels like this is really cool. This is a great way I don’t have to focus and worry about where my business is coming from, Where’s my next lead coming from, because the podcast does that for me automatically.
Tanya: Awesome. Well, you’ve given us so much great advice today, any parting thoughts for our listeners and also tell us again where they can find you?
Doug: Sure. Well, I was told something by someone early on in podcasting and it has stuck with me for the last 9 or 10 years since I started thinking about launching, and that is: Never let perfect be the enemy of done. So, so many people in podcasting, they want to get that right accent, or the best microphone, or they want to have that perfect VIP guest, and I’m like, don’t pause or hesitate because you don’t have the ideal guests that you think your audience is going to want. The worst guests to me have turned out to be the best guests for my audience, so I’ve stopped guessing. Never let perfect be the enemy of done. I would say that that’s probably my favorite advice to give someone that is thinking about starting a podcast.
Tanya: Right? That applies to books too, by the way.
Doug: And the best way for somebody to reach out to us again is just go to the contact page on TurnkeyPodcast.com.
Tanya: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. You were a great guest, and we certainly appreciate your time.
Well, that’s it for our episode with Doug. We hope you enjoyed learning about podcasting for authors. For notes and resources from today’s show, go to GreenleafBookGroup.com/episode78.
You can also find advice for writing, publishing and promoting your work in my book, Ideas, Influence, and Income, which you can learn more about at IdeasInfluenceandIncome.com. If you’ve enjoyed our show, please rate and review us on iTunes, Spotify or wherever it is you listen to your podcasts. It means a lot to have your feedback and helps us make sure we’re answering your publishing questions. A big thank you to Eleanor Fishbourne and Madison Johnson who produce the Published podcast, and we will be back next month with another episode.
About Doug Sandler: As co-host of The Nice Guys on Business Podcast and an interviewer, Doug has interviewed digital marketing guru Gary Vaynerchuk, media superstar Arianna Huffington, ABC’s Dan Harris, Celebrity Apprentice Jeffrey Hayzlett, NY Times and Wall Street Journal best-seller Jeffrey Gitomer, and dozens of celebs and business leaders. As an author, Doug’s book, Nice Guys Finish First, is an Amazon best seller. Doug is a nationally recognized speaker and shares his Nice Guy’s relationship building message with businesses across the country. As Turnkey’s concept development expert, Doug works directly with clients on podcast planning and development.